This made me wonder whether shame serves a useful purpose. It's a debatable question in parenting circles. My feeling is that if I'm taking my kids to breakfast, and they decide to yell and fight with each other and ruin everyone else's breakfast at the diner, then shame is an appropriate way to take responsibility for that behavior. As opposed to simply working through one's feelings. Yet I know all too well that shaming often doesn't accomplish anything.
So you have me wondering what the right word is for accepting responsibility for the way one impacts others, which sometimes means acknowledging harm? How do you distinguish between shame and guilt?
Atul Gawande described the difference once as guilt meaning culpability for a certain act and shame meaning a kind of totalizing feeling that you are the thing that is wrong. I think this is the distinction people cite when they want to banish shame. But I still think there is a place for blushing when acknowledgement of wrong is needed. Too old-school?
It’s funny you mention this because during one of our first writing breakouts at the retreat I wrote a series of questions about shame and basically had the same question. I wondered what the purpose of it is. And whether or not it served me at some point in time in the past. It seems to be an emotional protective measure of some sort. Yet guilt does feel distinctly different. I agree that we should feel something in those instances when we cause harm, or even perceived harm. Thanks for the thoughtful comment, as always.
Josh I would suggest that in that parenting situation you’re describing guilt rather than shame. Saying “don’t ever do that thing” is to assign guilt to an act, per your definition. To put shame on someone is to say “don’t ever be the bad person you are again.” That’s the difference as I understand it. In that context there is no place for putting shame on another. We all feel it naturally anyway.
Great points, Dee. These nuances get blurred -- people talk about living with "Catholic guilt," which I think hews closer to the internalized shame that you describe. So perhaps the context for using the words matters just as much as the words themselves.
As I've heard said, we don't always remember what our parents said to us, but we remember how they made us feel. So focusing on love as the prevailing foundation, with some room for expectations for good manners and integrity and personal growth on top of that, might strike closer to the mark.
Hell yes! I love that you practice loving-kindness toward your Shame Buddha, Lyle. And I agree with Dee and Karen, those who wield "shame" as a weapon...OOF...they're in a class all their own, but they probably need some loving-kindness too. This is an excellent reminder of that.
Thank you!! I absolutely wholeheartedly agree. There were a few other incredible examples of leading with loving kindness here at the retreat. They were inspiring and moving.
Hard to imagine that people still use the phrase “Shame on you!” But they do. Talk about an assault. Thanks for sharing Lyle! Good luck nurturing those other Buddhas 🙏
A great read. So happy you and Allison are enjoying your getaway. I envy your walk on the beach, sounds like a great place to get acquainted with all your Buddha’s.
This made me wonder whether shame serves a useful purpose. It's a debatable question in parenting circles. My feeling is that if I'm taking my kids to breakfast, and they decide to yell and fight with each other and ruin everyone else's breakfast at the diner, then shame is an appropriate way to take responsibility for that behavior. As opposed to simply working through one's feelings. Yet I know all too well that shaming often doesn't accomplish anything.
So you have me wondering what the right word is for accepting responsibility for the way one impacts others, which sometimes means acknowledging harm? How do you distinguish between shame and guilt?
Atul Gawande described the difference once as guilt meaning culpability for a certain act and shame meaning a kind of totalizing feeling that you are the thing that is wrong. I think this is the distinction people cite when they want to banish shame. But I still think there is a place for blushing when acknowledgement of wrong is needed. Too old-school?
It’s funny you mention this because during one of our first writing breakouts at the retreat I wrote a series of questions about shame and basically had the same question. I wondered what the purpose of it is. And whether or not it served me at some point in time in the past. It seems to be an emotional protective measure of some sort. Yet guilt does feel distinctly different. I agree that we should feel something in those instances when we cause harm, or even perceived harm. Thanks for the thoughtful comment, as always.
Josh I would suggest that in that parenting situation you’re describing guilt rather than shame. Saying “don’t ever do that thing” is to assign guilt to an act, per your definition. To put shame on someone is to say “don’t ever be the bad person you are again.” That’s the difference as I understand it. In that context there is no place for putting shame on another. We all feel it naturally anyway.
Great points, Dee. These nuances get blurred -- people talk about living with "Catholic guilt," which I think hews closer to the internalized shame that you describe. So perhaps the context for using the words matters just as much as the words themselves.
As I've heard said, we don't always remember what our parents said to us, but we remember how they made us feel. So focusing on love as the prevailing foundation, with some room for expectations for good manners and integrity and personal growth on top of that, might strike closer to the mark.
Yes. I’d say that you’re 100% on target as far as Catholic shame 🙄
Guilt goes away. Shame stays.
Love this welcoming of shame to have *some space but not *ALL the space <3
Thank you, Kathryn! ❤️
Hell yes! I love that you practice loving-kindness toward your Shame Buddha, Lyle. And I agree with Dee and Karen, those who wield "shame" as a weapon...OOF...they're in a class all their own, but they probably need some loving-kindness too. This is an excellent reminder of that.
Thank you!! I absolutely wholeheartedly agree. There were a few other incredible examples of leading with loving kindness here at the retreat. They were inspiring and moving.
Hard to imagine that people still use the phrase “Shame on you!” But they do. Talk about an assault. Thanks for sharing Lyle! Good luck nurturing those other Buddhas 🙏
Thanks, Dee! Oof, yeah, that’s a particularly seething phrase.
Was so amazing to witness you read this out loud to the group and I was really happy you felt it was enough to publish in your newsletter :)
Thank you, Caryn! It was beautiful reconnecting with you in Playa Avellanas. Keep writing and sharing your words!
Great piece!! My therapist says that Shame is a waste-of-time emotion. He says Regret is fine, but Shame is toxic.
That’s fascinating, Karen. Thanks for sharing!
Nice Lyle keep up the good work!!
Thank you, Chandler!
A great read. So happy you and Allison are enjoying your getaway. I envy your walk on the beach, sounds like a great place to get acquainted with all your Buddha’s.
Thank you, Barbara! ❤️