I’ve always thought the worst thing someone could say about me when I’m not around is, “You know, the thing about Lyle is, he means well.” It’s so pathetic sounding, like I’m trying to be cool or thoughtful or whatever but I’m not quite pulling it off. I’d rather someone hate me. Because at least they’d have a strong opinion.
Thanks for sharing these vulnerable observations and feelings Lyle. This probably takes good amount of courage to publicly share - rooting for your transformation! I love differentiating between nice and kind - there is a fine line to become a pushover
Such a fantastic essay, Lyle. I too appreciate your nice-vs-kind callout. I saw so much of myself in those quotes (You might be a Nice GIRL if...) but as you described your work conundrum, I realized how often my niceness toward one person/instance will mean I can’t be kind to another person/instance (e.g. work vs husband, family member vs family member, someone else vs myself). I also see how my niceness bucket drains and then I’m very unkind to the poor soul who is next in line. I’m sorry and Yuck. As an aside, the agency of women I work for is also very nice, too nice, and we’re all tired of being taken advantage of. So we pushed new 2024 contracts that finally ask for what we deserve after being so nice for years. Of course the clients are very unhappy. It’s been so painful for us. While we compromised and lowered our proposed new rate, we stood our ground on the important pieces because we’ll never grow if we don’t try. I share this only because I feel the discomfort you’re going through... but let’s both hope that by letting go of the “nice” addiction--and possibly looking like a real asshole by comparison--will reset our baseline of being kind to ourselves and to others. Thank you for giving me that perspective this morning.
Thank you for sharing your story about work. Client work is tough, especially when longer term relationships are out of balance. Props to you and your team for kindly sticking up for what you’re worth.
Wow! That adds a few more dimensions to this already multi-faceted topic... I like your observation that being nice to one person can drain the ability to be so, as much, to the ‘next in line’, and I empathize with your position in between compromising and standing your ground, and in between being too nice and looking like an asshole.. So much to absorb in your comment.
Awesome, Karen! I definitely experienced MORE of this throughout the day when my poor tired soul was just empty of niceness. It’s definitely time to recharge the batteries!
You’ve always been SO nice to me, I can’t imagine you empty of niceness 😅 I really appreciate your writing on here where I’m getting to better know my daughter Alicia’s generation, you all are creative and kind. My fellow baby boomers and I salute you all and want to tag along into your future 😊
Well right back at you! 🥰 Being GenX, I can attest to the “lost generation” feeling, but being right at the very END of GX, the silver lining is that I’m able to empathize with / relate to Booms and Mills alike! You are always welcome!
So valuable to contrast nice and kind. The older I get the more I've been able to refine my behavior to differentiate between the two. So, I think you're well on your way!
Your mentioning that semantic difference really struck me, too! I really identify with this post, thank you, Lyle, for analyzing this so deeply. It probably applies to many of us in different ways and degrees. My own “niceness” came from insecurity in my childhood, our family being made fun of in some ways in our neighborhood, etc. A roommate of mine in college told me that when she was asking around to mutual friends if I would be a good roommate, one guy said, “Karen is nice...” and she thought it was such a tepid recommendation that she hesitated before deciding to room with me. (As it happens, we got along great) And there are times I WAS “nice”, usually when I was insecure and awkward. And it didn’t move anyone. A girl in a poetry writing class called it “niceness from a fear-y plight”. It helps to read your analysis of the whole phenomenon, though I know it’s different for everyone. The times when I act from true kindness, and the times when people feel and experience my actions or words as kindness (whether they consciously or subconsciously do), and the times when I feel others’ kindness, have been profound and they resonate differently from “nice”. You differentiated all this so clearly. I’m thinking about the depth of what you analyze.♥️
This resonates, Lyle. I wonder if the difference between niceness and kindness might also be that niceness requires a kind of self-denial which turns to resentment when buried long enough, whereas kindness doesn't require denying the self so much as asserting the self in a consciously healthier way. Niceness often involves pretense, which never ends well. I'm thinking here also of regional cultures like the Midwest and the South, where there is a veneer of niceness (Iowa Nice or Southern Hospitality) that is often a mask on how people really feel. We don't need more fake niceness. But we do need more kindness, because kindness is honest.
Also appreciate your note about assertiveness. This is something I'm still mastering. If you internalize your niceness too much, you can start questioning whether your feelings are legitimate. Do I really feel X? Or am I being too dramatic by feeling X? Assertiveness means owning those feelings much sooner, maybe with something more like "I'm feeling X, and I don't know entirely where it's coming from, but I need to acknowledge it."
Great point, Josh! I’m in a similar boat as you when it comes to questioning my feelings. I love your last point, especially, because our feelings are always valid, even if they’re maybe not right-sized in the moment.
Dude, great stuff. Your words really struck a nerve, especially about kindness. I'm actually working on an essay about the difference between kindness and compassion, or truth. There's so much to be said and so much to be unlearned about that topic. I've really enjoyed this series.
So clear so good Lyle. Making it out loud is definitely the first step. It softens what comes after. Now so know that if you’re being an assertive Dick that you’re just working your program 😉
Something that reframed this dynamic for me was this: If I’m being nice and hiding what I want because I want someone to like me, I’m actually being manipulative and dishonest. That’s not really nice at all.
Dec 17, 2023·edited Dec 18, 2023Liked by Lyle McKeany
The whole niceness, people pleasing, inability to say no, is a mindset we adopt as very young kids. To be accepted. And the stress of living like that eventually makes us sick. In so many ways. This was such a great read Lyle.
It resonated with me on so many levels. And brought up memories that I had almost forgotten about. Thanks for sharing in such a nuanced, thoughtful way, and showing your vulnerability in a way that inspires.
Thanks, Kevin! You’re right that these tendencies are formed in childhood. There’s a lot more to Nice Guy Syndrome, including a lot of societal factors like fathers working away from home and negative male tropes.
I love the Taco Bell dilemma! I think I read on Charlie Gilkey’s Substack that he does some kind of rating system with issues that come up. Each partner rates how important it is to them from 1-10 and the person who cares most gets to go forward with their plan... haven’t tried it yet but I could see it being useful!
God, Lyle, this speaks to me on so many levels! I’m a nice guy as well (it’s already a cliché at this point how much we’re alike, lol), and I’ve been trying to assert my needs and preferences more in the past two years or so. It helps that my wife is a very matter-of-fact person, so she kinda forces me out of my shell at times, but it’s still difficult. It’s a long process, as you’ve observed. Thanks for writing this!
lol yeah. Nice Guyness is somewhat common. The author of the book goes into many theories as to why, most of which are societal changes such as fathers working away from home and negative tropes about men (e.g. men are pigs). My wife challenges me similarly at times, although I don’t want to put her in that position too much because it can build resentment. The good news is that she provides a safe space for me to try out being a Kind Guy instead.
Great piece Lyle, I can tell this comes straight from deep personal experience. I love hearing you explore this on the page.
My own take on this for a long time has been "Nice only gets you so far," — which is not that far at all. Nice almost always read as fake to me. And—it's been a real struggle for me to ways to be more assertive, because of my fear of being censured / rebuked / dropped / rejected. I used to think this way mostly a fear of reactions from women, but I know now that it's gender-neutral and that I have feared negative reactions from other men just as much. Both, in fact, take the form of imagining a violent verbal response where I am, essentially, shouted down for speaking up. Now, there are plenty of cases where I choose not speak up because I'm not seeking conflict around issues that don't directly connect to my own experience, but it is more and more the case that if it something that affects me personally, I'll say something even if I'm afraid, on another level, of the possibility of a negative response. It's still something I need to practice more. This is the power of *positive* confrontation.
I've mentioned this to you directly, and so I'll share it here -- the book The Courage to Be Disliked https://bookshop.org/a/96231/9781501197277 was a huge opener for me. The basic point is that if everyone likes you then that's clear evidence that you're not being your full self, and so therefore you should actually *seek* opportunities for _some_ people to dislike you, as proof that you are expressing yourself more fully.
As a recovering "nice gal," I especially love this post. One of my favorite parts: "There’s a difference between being nice and being kind. It’s kind to let people know where you truly stand. It’s kind to yourself to know where you truly stand and stick up for yourself. Truth is of the utmost importance." Thanks for this important reminder, Mr. Nice Guy!
Great post, Lyle, and brave! Such an under discussed syndrome that many of us are recovering from. Even me, though I know I often present just the opposite. Learning to be kind to myself first and foremost has been a long process.
I really resonated with this Lyle - so many parallels. Right down to the father relationship and my relationship with my wife. So much truth. Thank you for your honest writing. 👏🤓
Thanks for sharing these vulnerable observations and feelings Lyle. This probably takes good amount of courage to publicly share - rooting for your transformation! I love differentiating between nice and kind - there is a fine line to become a pushover
Thank you, Minh!
Such a fantastic essay, Lyle. I too appreciate your nice-vs-kind callout. I saw so much of myself in those quotes (You might be a Nice GIRL if...) but as you described your work conundrum, I realized how often my niceness toward one person/instance will mean I can’t be kind to another person/instance (e.g. work vs husband, family member vs family member, someone else vs myself). I also see how my niceness bucket drains and then I’m very unkind to the poor soul who is next in line. I’m sorry and Yuck. As an aside, the agency of women I work for is also very nice, too nice, and we’re all tired of being taken advantage of. So we pushed new 2024 contracts that finally ask for what we deserve after being so nice for years. Of course the clients are very unhappy. It’s been so painful for us. While we compromised and lowered our proposed new rate, we stood our ground on the important pieces because we’ll never grow if we don’t try. I share this only because I feel the discomfort you’re going through... but let’s both hope that by letting go of the “nice” addiction--and possibly looking like a real asshole by comparison--will reset our baseline of being kind to ourselves and to others. Thank you for giving me that perspective this morning.
Thank you for sharing your story about work. Client work is tough, especially when longer term relationships are out of balance. Props to you and your team for kindly sticking up for what you’re worth.
Thanks Lyle! I’m hoping it all works out in the end.
Wow! That adds a few more dimensions to this already multi-faceted topic... I like your observation that being nice to one person can drain the ability to be so, as much, to the ‘next in line’, and I empathize with your position in between compromising and standing your ground, and in between being too nice and looking like an asshole.. So much to absorb in your comment.
Awesome, Karen! I definitely experienced MORE of this throughout the day when my poor tired soul was just empty of niceness. It’s definitely time to recharge the batteries!
You’ve always been SO nice to me, I can’t imagine you empty of niceness 😅 I really appreciate your writing on here where I’m getting to better know my daughter Alicia’s generation, you all are creative and kind. My fellow baby boomers and I salute you all and want to tag along into your future 😊
Well right back at you! 🥰 Being GenX, I can attest to the “lost generation” feeling, but being right at the very END of GX, the silver lining is that I’m able to empathize with / relate to Booms and Mills alike! You are always welcome!
So valuable to contrast nice and kind. The older I get the more I've been able to refine my behavior to differentiate between the two. So, I think you're well on your way!
Yeah, that was an unlock for me. It’s funny how two seemingly similar words can mean quite different things when you dig into the nuances of them.
Your mentioning that semantic difference really struck me, too! I really identify with this post, thank you, Lyle, for analyzing this so deeply. It probably applies to many of us in different ways and degrees. My own “niceness” came from insecurity in my childhood, our family being made fun of in some ways in our neighborhood, etc. A roommate of mine in college told me that when she was asking around to mutual friends if I would be a good roommate, one guy said, “Karen is nice...” and she thought it was such a tepid recommendation that she hesitated before deciding to room with me. (As it happens, we got along great) And there are times I WAS “nice”, usually when I was insecure and awkward. And it didn’t move anyone. A girl in a poetry writing class called it “niceness from a fear-y plight”. It helps to read your analysis of the whole phenomenon, though I know it’s different for everyone. The times when I act from true kindness, and the times when people feel and experience my actions or words as kindness (whether they consciously or subconsciously do), and the times when I feel others’ kindness, have been profound and they resonate differently from “nice”. You differentiated all this so clearly. I’m thinking about the depth of what you analyze.♥️
This resonates, Lyle. I wonder if the difference between niceness and kindness might also be that niceness requires a kind of self-denial which turns to resentment when buried long enough, whereas kindness doesn't require denying the self so much as asserting the self in a consciously healthier way. Niceness often involves pretense, which never ends well. I'm thinking here also of regional cultures like the Midwest and the South, where there is a veneer of niceness (Iowa Nice or Southern Hospitality) that is often a mask on how people really feel. We don't need more fake niceness. But we do need more kindness, because kindness is honest.
Also appreciate your note about assertiveness. This is something I'm still mastering. If you internalize your niceness too much, you can start questioning whether your feelings are legitimate. Do I really feel X? Or am I being too dramatic by feeling X? Assertiveness means owning those feelings much sooner, maybe with something more like "I'm feeling X, and I don't know entirely where it's coming from, but I need to acknowledge it."
Great point, Josh! I’m in a similar boat as you when it comes to questioning my feelings. I love your last point, especially, because our feelings are always valid, even if they’re maybe not right-sized in the moment.
Dude, great stuff. Your words really struck a nerve, especially about kindness. I'm actually working on an essay about the difference between kindness and compassion, or truth. There's so much to be said and so much to be unlearned about that topic. I've really enjoyed this series.
I’m looking forward to reading your essay. I love that you said there’s so much to unlearn, rather than learn. That’s another important distinction.
So clear so good Lyle. Making it out loud is definitely the first step. It softens what comes after. Now so know that if you’re being an assertive Dick that you’re just working your program 😉
Thanks, Dee!
Something that reframed this dynamic for me was this: If I’m being nice and hiding what I want because I want someone to like me, I’m actually being manipulative and dishonest. That’s not really nice at all.
Very well put!
I often find it difficult to simply say “I feel x” instead of “I feel like x.”
I read this and let out an audible gasp while in the metro and the person sitting next to me got scared haha. So relatable.
That’s so funny! I’ve definitely done that before. Or laughed out loud and gotten some funny looks lol
The whole niceness, people pleasing, inability to say no, is a mindset we adopt as very young kids. To be accepted. And the stress of living like that eventually makes us sick. In so many ways. This was such a great read Lyle.
It resonated with me on so many levels. And brought up memories that I had almost forgotten about. Thanks for sharing in such a nuanced, thoughtful way, and showing your vulnerability in a way that inspires.
Many thanks. 👏✍️
Thanks, Kevin! You’re right that these tendencies are formed in childhood. There’s a lot more to Nice Guy Syndrome, including a lot of societal factors like fathers working away from home and negative male tropes.
It’s a complex characteristic, for complex characters to carry!
I love the Taco Bell dilemma! I think I read on Charlie Gilkey’s Substack that he does some kind of rating system with issues that come up. Each partner rates how important it is to them from 1-10 and the person who cares most gets to go forward with their plan... haven’t tried it yet but I could see it being useful!
That’s an interesting idea and probably a helpful way to negotiate things. Thanks for sharing!
God, Lyle, this speaks to me on so many levels! I’m a nice guy as well (it’s already a cliché at this point how much we’re alike, lol), and I’ve been trying to assert my needs and preferences more in the past two years or so. It helps that my wife is a very matter-of-fact person, so she kinda forces me out of my shell at times, but it’s still difficult. It’s a long process, as you’ve observed. Thanks for writing this!
lol yeah. Nice Guyness is somewhat common. The author of the book goes into many theories as to why, most of which are societal changes such as fathers working away from home and negative tropes about men (e.g. men are pigs). My wife challenges me similarly at times, although I don’t want to put her in that position too much because it can build resentment. The good news is that she provides a safe space for me to try out being a Kind Guy instead.
Great piece Lyle, I can tell this comes straight from deep personal experience. I love hearing you explore this on the page.
My own take on this for a long time has been "Nice only gets you so far," — which is not that far at all. Nice almost always read as fake to me. And—it's been a real struggle for me to ways to be more assertive, because of my fear of being censured / rebuked / dropped / rejected. I used to think this way mostly a fear of reactions from women, but I know now that it's gender-neutral and that I have feared negative reactions from other men just as much. Both, in fact, take the form of imagining a violent verbal response where I am, essentially, shouted down for speaking up. Now, there are plenty of cases where I choose not speak up because I'm not seeking conflict around issues that don't directly connect to my own experience, but it is more and more the case that if it something that affects me personally, I'll say something even if I'm afraid, on another level, of the possibility of a negative response. It's still something I need to practice more. This is the power of *positive* confrontation.
I've mentioned this to you directly, and so I'll share it here -- the book The Courage to Be Disliked https://bookshop.org/a/96231/9781501197277 was a huge opener for me. The basic point is that if everyone likes you then that's clear evidence that you're not being your full self, and so therefore you should actually *seek* opportunities for _some_ people to dislike you, as proof that you are expressing yourself more fully.
Thanks, Bowen! That’s a book I’ve been meaning to read forever. Checking it out from the library this week!
As a recovering "nice gal," I especially love this post. One of my favorite parts: "There’s a difference between being nice and being kind. It’s kind to let people know where you truly stand. It’s kind to yourself to know where you truly stand and stick up for yourself. Truth is of the utmost importance." Thanks for this important reminder, Mr. Nice Guy!
Thanks, Kris!
Well said. It is important for us to not be too kind as well as nice, such that we neglect our own priorities, self-care and self-respect.
Absolutely. It’s so easy to lose sight of ourselves.
Great post, Lyle, and brave! Such an under discussed syndrome that many of us are recovering from. Even me, though I know I often present just the opposite. Learning to be kind to myself first and foremost has been a long process.
Thanks, Sara! I’ve definitely been learning—both here in the comments and in email replies—that this applies to a lot of people, regardless of gender.
I really resonated with this Lyle - so many parallels. Right down to the father relationship and my relationship with my wife. So much truth. Thank you for your honest writing. 👏🤓
Thanks, Kris! I recommend checking out the book. I only scratched the surface of it in this piece